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	<title>Comments on: Types of Emergence</title>
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	<link>http://emergentfool.com/2007/09/20/types-of-emergence/</link>
	<description>...explorations in complex adaptive systems...</description>
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		<title>By: DWCrmcm</title>
		<link>http://emergentfool.com/2007/09/20/types-of-emergence/#comment-6342</link>
		<dc:creator>DWCrmcm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 22:46:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/2001/09/20/types-of-emergence/#comment-6342</guid>
		<description>http://emergentfool.com/2007/09/20/types-of-emergence/#comment-6330

Getting squeezed a little.

&quot;The idea of auto-cannibalism being autocatalysis ...  “dies” first.&quot;

Good point - an essential attribute.
 
Thanks for the link.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://emergentfool.com/2007/09/20/types-of-emergence/#comment-6330" rel="nofollow">http://emergentfool.com/2007/09/20/types-of-emergence/#comment-6330</a></p>
<p>Getting squeezed a little.</p>
<p>&#8220;The idea of auto-cannibalism being autocatalysis &#8230;  “dies” first.&#8221;</p>
<p>Good point &#8211; an essential attribute.</p>
<p>Thanks for the link.</p>
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		<title>By: Rafe Furst</title>
		<link>http://emergentfool.com/2007/09/20/types-of-emergence/#comment-6330</link>
		<dc:creator>Rafe Furst</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 17:51:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/2001/09/20/types-of-emergence/#comment-6330</guid>
		<description>&quot;May I suggest that agency is not “boolean” rather it is a continuum and the metric is persistence. Stability is a relative term that can be obviated through fecundity. The organism need only survive long enough to procreate.  &lt;b&gt;Agreed&lt;/b&gt;

&quot;Resources can be obviated through cannibalism.&quot; &lt;b&gt;Agreed&lt;/b&gt;

&quot;Maybe autocatalytics is cannibalism.&quot; I think they are slightly different.  As you point out, autocatalysis is a false construct.  All catalysis requires &quot;metabolic consumption of resources&quot; from outside the system being described.  All organisms on earth can metabolize energy (e.g. from the sun), basic elements like carbon, complex biomolecules, and many can metabolize other organisms, including those of their own &quot;species&quot;.  When it crosses this species boundary, we call it cannibalism but of course the boundary itself is somewhat fuzzier than biologists like to think.  The idea of auto-cannibalism being autocatalysis is close to the truth but there seems to be an additional connotation in cannibalism which is that the organism being metabolized &quot;dies&quot; first.  If we agree that a descent chain of a replicating agents constitutes a single system/organism, then eating one&#039;s relatives (which is an autocatalytic act) is indeed auto-cannibalism.  And if we agree that &quot;autocatalytic&quot; is simply shorthand for a &lt;a href=&quot;http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&amp;safe=off&amp;client=safari&amp;rls=en&amp;um=1&amp;sa=1&amp;q=life+cycle&amp;btnG=Search&amp;aq=f&amp;oq=&amp;aqi=&amp;start=0&amp;tbo=1#start=0&amp;tbo=1&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;cross-catalytic cycle&lt;/a&gt; that seems to have very few steps, then the link between (auto)cannibalism and (auto)catalysis becomes even clearer.

&quot;Lord I enjoy reading your work.&quot; Thank you, that&#039;s very kind.  You may also like some colleagues of mine at the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.autognomics.org/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Autognomics Institute&lt;/a&gt;.  They use very organic terminology that is more similar to your own than mine is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;May I suggest that agency is not “boolean” rather it is a continuum and the metric is persistence. Stability is a relative term that can be obviated through fecundity. The organism need only survive long enough to procreate.  <b>Agreed</b></p>
<p>&#8220;Resources can be obviated through cannibalism.&#8221; <b>Agreed</b></p>
<p>&#8220;Maybe autocatalytics is cannibalism.&#8221; I think they are slightly different.  As you point out, autocatalysis is a false construct.  All catalysis requires &#8220;metabolic consumption of resources&#8221; from outside the system being described.  All organisms on earth can metabolize energy (e.g. from the sun), basic elements like carbon, complex biomolecules, and many can metabolize other organisms, including those of their own &#8220;species&#8221;.  When it crosses this species boundary, we call it cannibalism but of course the boundary itself is somewhat fuzzier than biologists like to think.  The idea of auto-cannibalism being autocatalysis is close to the truth but there seems to be an additional connotation in cannibalism which is that the organism being metabolized &#8220;dies&#8221; first.  If we agree that a descent chain of a replicating agents constitutes a single system/organism, then eating one&#8217;s relatives (which is an autocatalytic act) is indeed auto-cannibalism.  And if we agree that &#8220;autocatalytic&#8221; is simply shorthand for a <a href="http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&#038;safe=off&#038;client=safari&#038;rls=en&#038;um=1&#038;sa=1&#038;q=life+cycle&#038;btnG=Search&#038;aq=f&#038;oq=&#038;aqi=&#038;start=0&#038;tbo=1#start=0&#038;tbo=1" rel="nofollow">cross-catalytic cycle</a> that seems to have very few steps, then the link between (auto)cannibalism and (auto)catalysis becomes even clearer.</p>
<p>&#8220;Lord I enjoy reading your work.&#8221; Thank you, that&#8217;s very kind.  You may also like some colleagues of mine at the <a href="http://www.autognomics.org/" rel="nofollow">Autognomics Institute</a>.  They use very organic terminology that is more similar to your own than mine is.</p>
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		<title>By: DWCrmcm</title>
		<link>http://emergentfool.com/2007/09/20/types-of-emergence/#comment-6304</link>
		<dc:creator>DWCrmcm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 23:57:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/2001/09/20/types-of-emergence/#comment-6304</guid>
		<description>&quot;Agency is not a binary proposition, but rather a continuum where the metric is stability.&quot;

May I suggest that agency is not &quot;boolean&quot; rather it is a continuum and the metric is persistence. Stability is a relative term that can be obviated through fecundity. 
The organism need only survive long enough to procreate.
Resources can be obviated through cannibalism.
Autoimmunity and necrotizing fasciitis come to mind.
Maybe autocatalytics is cannibalism.
Or as Salivdor Dali might assert auto-cannibalism.

:)

Lord I enjoy  reading your work.
I&#039;ll check out the other two links.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Agency is not a binary proposition, but rather a continuum where the metric is stability.&#8221;</p>
<p>May I suggest that agency is not &#8220;boolean&#8221; rather it is a continuum and the metric is persistence. Stability is a relative term that can be obviated through fecundity.<br />
The organism need only survive long enough to procreate.<br />
Resources can be obviated through cannibalism.<br />
Autoimmunity and necrotizing fasciitis come to mind.<br />
Maybe autocatalytics is cannibalism.<br />
Or as Salivdor Dali might assert auto-cannibalism.</p>
<p>:)</p>
<p>Lord I enjoy  reading your work.<br />
I&#8217;ll check out the other two links.</p>
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		<title>By: Rafe Furst</title>
		<link>http://emergentfool.com/2007/09/20/types-of-emergence/#comment-6302</link>
		<dc:creator>Rafe Furst</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 23:32:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/2001/09/20/types-of-emergence/#comment-6302</guid>
		<description>I completely agree with you.  I clarify the point about no system being truly &lt;b&gt;auto&lt;/b&gt;catalytic in this post on &lt;a href=&quot;http://emergentfool.com/2009/10/07/a-theory-of-scalability/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;scalability of complex systems&lt;/a&gt; and in &lt;a href=&quot;http://emergentfool.com/2008/11/17/autocatalytic-systems/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this one&lt;/a&gt; which is even more of a fine point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I completely agree with you.  I clarify the point about no system being truly <b>auto</b>catalytic in this post on <a href="http://emergentfool.com/2009/10/07/a-theory-of-scalability/" rel="nofollow">scalability of complex systems</a> and in <a href="http://emergentfool.com/2008/11/17/autocatalytic-systems/" rel="nofollow">this one</a> which is even more of a fine point.</p>
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		<title>By: DWCrmcm</title>
		<link>http://emergentfool.com/2007/09/20/types-of-emergence/#comment-6298</link>
		<dc:creator>DWCrmcm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 22:28:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/2001/09/20/types-of-emergence/#comment-6298</guid>
		<description>autocatalytic.

I am ambivalent about the significance of this word.
I understand that it tries to define a process that feeds itself.
In this regard it feels scientific - one empirical disclosure at a time.
In reflection, I dislike the poor word usage; catalysis is a well defined or described event. Auto catalytic is by definition an oxymoron. 

On the other hand I like the catch it tries to make as much as I dislike Dawkins&#039; muddled thinking.

We can presume that this encapsulation is flawed Prima facie . 
Where is the mechanism for consumption and the mechanism for waste elimination?

It requires their implication. We have to buy the implication before we can buy the premise. This is a classical error in reasoning. 

Not your error per say, just an example of how we complicate understanding. 
Simplicity must be robust. Because it is robust, it must be capable of behaving as needed, and it must be capable of acquiring shape as needed.
In short - multibehavioral and polymorphic. 
Why?
Because adaptation defines it as such.

The RMCM encapsulates catalysis within the hierarchy Influence - Metabolisms or complex mechanisms that regulate frequency. They acquire &quot;fuel&quot; and dispose of &quot;waste&quot; &quot;systemically&quot;. While the model proper is indifferent to the parenthetically enclosed these words are bridges across which one can trace back their reasoning.

This may or may not bear on your article at large.
I am confident from reading your work, that you are fully capable of proceeding on your own terms, without the dubious assistance of Mr. Dawkins.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>autocatalytic.</p>
<p>I am ambivalent about the significance of this word.<br />
I understand that it tries to define a process that feeds itself.<br />
In this regard it feels scientific &#8211; one empirical disclosure at a time.<br />
In reflection, I dislike the poor word usage; catalysis is a well defined or described event. Auto catalytic is by definition an oxymoron. </p>
<p>On the other hand I like the catch it tries to make as much as I dislike Dawkins&#8217; muddled thinking.</p>
<p>We can presume that this encapsulation is flawed Prima facie .<br />
Where is the mechanism for consumption and the mechanism for waste elimination?</p>
<p>It requires their implication. We have to buy the implication before we can buy the premise. This is a classical error in reasoning. </p>
<p>Not your error per say, just an example of how we complicate understanding.<br />
Simplicity must be robust. Because it is robust, it must be capable of behaving as needed, and it must be capable of acquiring shape as needed.<br />
In short &#8211; multibehavioral and polymorphic.<br />
Why?<br />
Because adaptation defines it as such.</p>
<p>The RMCM encapsulates catalysis within the hierarchy Influence &#8211; Metabolisms or complex mechanisms that regulate frequency. They acquire &#8220;fuel&#8221; and dispose of &#8220;waste&#8221; &#8220;systemically&#8221;. While the model proper is indifferent to the parenthetically enclosed these words are bridges across which one can trace back their reasoning.</p>
<p>This may or may not bear on your article at large.<br />
I am confident from reading your work, that you are fully capable of proceeding on your own terms, without the dubious assistance of Mr. Dawkins.</p>
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		<title>By: Comments on Human Cultural Transformation &#171; The Emergent Fool</title>
		<link>http://emergentfool.com/2007/09/20/types-of-emergence/#comment-4298</link>
		<dc:creator>Comments on Human Cultural Transformation &#171; The Emergent Fool</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 22:39:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/2001/09/20/types-of-emergence/#comment-4298</guid>
		<description>[...] of agents with heritable variation and differential reproduction rates. There are at least two types of emergence, both of which can create new types of agents. Various self-reinforcing mechanisms lead to stronger [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of agents with heritable variation and differential reproduction rates. There are at least two types of emergence, both of which can create new types of agents. Various self-reinforcing mechanisms lead to stronger [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Beyond the Gene &#171; Complex Adaptive Systems</title>
		<link>http://emergentfool.com/2007/09/20/types-of-emergence/#comment-1373</link>
		<dc:creator>Beyond the Gene &#171; Complex Adaptive Systems</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 21:35:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/2001/09/20/types-of-emergence/#comment-1373</guid>
		<description>[...] for aspects of complex systems that the standard genetic framework cannot.  Examples include virtual stability, epigenetic/lamarkian inheritance, organismal adaptation (e.g. Baldwin effect), and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] for aspects of complex systems that the standard genetic framework cannot.  Examples include virtual stability, epigenetic/lamarkian inheritance, organismal adaptation (e.g. Baldwin effect), and [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: The Conflict Between Complex Systems and Reductionism &#171; Complex Adaptive Systems</title>
		<link>http://emergentfool.com/2007/09/20/types-of-emergence/#comment-1376</link>
		<dc:creator>The Conflict Between Complex Systems and Reductionism &#171; Complex Adaptive Systems</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 23:43:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/2001/09/20/types-of-emergence/#comment-1376</guid>
		<description>[...] of a defective part? If a system is altered, should it be brought back to the previous status, or is there a new standard defining a new stable system? The development of many diseases can take years, during which time the system has adapted to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of a defective part? If a system is altered, should it be brought back to the previous status, or is there a new standard defining a new stable system? The development of many diseases can take years, during which time the system has adapted to [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Autocatalytic Systems &#171; Complex Adaptive Systems</title>
		<link>http://emergentfool.com/2007/09/20/types-of-emergence/#comment-1374</link>
		<dc:creator>Autocatalytic Systems &#171; Complex Adaptive Systems</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 17:13:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/2001/09/20/types-of-emergence/#comment-1374</guid>
		<description>[...] not the only form.  Cooperation represents a large class of self-organizing behavior as well.  Both autocatalysis and cooperation lead to emergence of new levels of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] not the only form.  Cooperation represents a large class of self-organizing behavior as well.  Both autocatalysis and cooperation lead to emergence of new levels of [...]</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Complex Systems Concept Summary &#171; Complex Adaptive Systems</title>
		<link>http://emergentfool.com/2007/09/20/types-of-emergence/#comment-1375</link>
		<dc:creator>Complex Systems Concept Summary &#171; Complex Adaptive Systems</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jul 2008 00:37:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/2001/09/20/types-of-emergence/#comment-1375</guid>
		<description>[...] I see there being at least two types of emergence, autocatalytic and cooperative. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I see there being at least two types of emergence, autocatalytic and cooperative. [...]</p>
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