Comments on: The Insidious Ascetic Meme http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/ ...explorations in complex adaptive systems... Thu, 09 Sep 2010 12:29:42 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Society According to Kevin: Introduction « Complex Adaptive Systems http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1504 Society According to Kevin: Introduction « Complex Adaptive Systems Fri, 02 Jan 2009 20:26:00 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1504 [...] you can probably guess from my series of posts on the Ascetic Meme (here, here, and here), I think this approach is misguided. If you read those posts, you can undoubtedly guess [...] [...] you can probably guess from my series of posts on the Ascetic Meme (here, here, and here), I think this approach is misguided. If you read those posts, you can undoubtedly guess [...]

]]> By: Policy Implications of the Ascetic Meme « Complex Adaptive Systems http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1508 Policy Implications of the Ascetic Meme « Complex Adaptive Systems Mon, 18 Aug 2008 00:24:45 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1508 [...] of the Ascetic Meme I’d like to thank everyone that stuck with me for Part I and Part II. Now we get to the punch line, which is very simple: because of the Ascetic Meme, we cannot trust [...] [...] of the Ascetic Meme I’d like to thank everyone that stuck with me for Part I and Part II. Now we get to the punch line, which is very simple: because of the Ascetic Meme, we cannot trust [...]

]]> By: kevindick http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1507 kevindick Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:09:14 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1507 @Jay. You've kind of made my point for me. Where does guilt from consumption come from? In fact you could easily argue that "guilt from consumption"="Frugality Meme". Then all you've done is passed the buck in explaining it. It's the fact that guilt from consumption, aka Frugality Meme, is so universal that interests me. Believe me, Jews don't have a monopoly on it. I'd say we Protestants are actually ahead of you there. We wouldn't even think of selling diamonds because that _promotes_ conspicuous consumption. And giving gifts of gold to 13 year olds? So extravagant, you are ;-) @Jay. You’ve kind of made my point for me. Where does guilt from consumption come from? In fact you could easily argue that “guilt from consumption”=”Frugality Meme”. Then all you’ve done is passed the buck in explaining it.

It’s the fact that guilt from consumption, aka Frugality Meme, is so universal that interests me. Believe me, Jews don’t have a monopoly on it. I’d say we Protestants are actually ahead of you there. We wouldn’t even think of selling diamonds because that _promotes_ conspicuous consumption. And giving gifts of gold to 13 year olds? So extravagant, you are ;-)

]]> By: kevindick http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1506 kevindick Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:00:45 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1506 @Rafe. I don't typically think of risk aversion as a meme. I don't even think of it as a cognitive bias. It's a preference and as such, it can't really be right or wrong. Now, there are biases, such as the endowment effect, that irrationally affect ones risk aversion, i.e., make it inconsistent across different problem statements. That said, I see what you're getting at. Risk aversion probably potentiates the Ascetic Meme; the more risk averse you are, the more susceptible you are. Because most humans are risk averse, the meme is generally effective. I should note, however, that you could frame environmentalism so that it is the risky alternative. Fundamentally, environmentalism is proposing a deviation from the status quo, which entails risk. However, proponents usually get around this by framing the status quo as some earlier civilizational period. @Rafe. I don’t typically think of risk aversion as a meme. I don’t even think of it as a cognitive bias. It’s a preference and as such, it can’t really be right or wrong. Now, there are biases, such as the endowment effect, that irrationally affect ones risk aversion, i.e., make it inconsistent across different problem statements.

That said, I see what you’re getting at. Risk aversion probably potentiates the Ascetic Meme; the more risk averse you are, the more susceptible you are. Because most humans are risk averse, the meme is generally effective.

I should note, however, that you could frame environmentalism so that it is the risky alternative. Fundamentally, environmentalism is proposing a deviation from the status quo, which entails risk. However, proponents usually get around this by framing the status quo as some earlier civilizational period.

]]> By: jay http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1505 jay Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:02:54 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1505 Kevin: You wrote: >>> All causes are obviously memes. But I’m curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence. <<< I think there's an explanation here. When you stand face-to-face with someone espousing a political or religious cause, it's extremely easy to dismiss them when your beliefs don't jibe. You might say that you simply don't agree with this person's world view. And you can leave it at that. With environmentalism, it's hard for you and me and everyone else to dismiss someone who is saying that we're overconsuming and should do more. Because at some level, they're right. We could, at a minimum, make changes in our lives that make no discernible impact on our standard of living, but have some, though almost negligible, environmental impact. For example, do I really need to drive around with my Escalade bolted to the top of my Hummer? When we recognize profligate consumption in ourselves we feel a little of that most primal of emotions -- guilt. You need to consult with a jew before your next post on this topic :) -j Kevin:
You wrote:
>>>
All causes are obviously memes. But I’m curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence.
<<<

I think there’s an explanation here. When you stand face-to-face with someone espousing a political or religious cause, it’s extremely easy to dismiss them when your beliefs don’t jibe. You might say that you simply don’t agree with this person’s world view. And you can leave it at that.

With environmentalism, it’s hard for you and me and everyone else to dismiss someone who is saying that we’re overconsuming and should do more. Because at some level, they’re right. We could, at a minimum, make changes in our lives that make no discernible impact on our standard of living, but have some, though almost negligible, environmental impact. For example, do I really need to drive around with my Escalade bolted to the top of my Hummer?

When we recognize profligate consumption in ourselves we feel a little of that most primal of emotions — guilt.

You need to consult with a jew before your next post on this topic :)

-j

]]> By: rafefurst http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1511 rafefurst Mon, 28 Jul 2008 07:04:28 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1511 Kevin, do you think the ascetic meme is related (or another face of) the risk-aversion meme? Kevin, do you think the ascetic meme is related (or another face of) the risk-aversion meme?

]]> By: kevindick http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1510 kevindick Mon, 28 Jul 2008 06:14:43 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1510 I take your point, Jay. However, I thought this was blogworthy because environmentalism seems much more effective at converting otherwise intelligent, independent people and setting the policy agenda than even the most popular mainstream religions. All causes are obviously memes. But I'm curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence. Moreover, there really are some serious policy issues to be dealt with here. So I think it's worth exploring how unjustified emotions may be subverting the decision process. I take your point, Jay. However, I thought this was blogworthy because environmentalism seems much more effective at converting otherwise intelligent, independent people and setting the policy agenda than even the most popular mainstream religions.

All causes are obviously memes. But I’m curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence.

Moreover, there really are some serious policy issues to be dealt with here. So I think it’s worth exploring how unjustified emotions may be subverting the decision process.

]]> By: jay http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/ ...explorations in complex adaptive systems... Thu, 09 Sep 2010 12:29:42 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 Comments on: The Insidious Ascetic Meme http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/ ...explorations in complex adaptive systems... Thu, 09 Sep 2010 12:29:42 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Society According to Kevin: Introduction « Complex Adaptive Systems http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1504 Society According to Kevin: Introduction « Complex Adaptive Systems Fri, 02 Jan 2009 20:26:00 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1504 [...] you can probably guess from my series of posts on the Ascetic Meme (here, here, and here), I think this approach is misguided. If you read those posts, you can undoubtedly guess [...] [...] you can probably guess from my series of posts on the Ascetic Meme (here, here, and here), I think this approach is misguided. If you read those posts, you can undoubtedly guess [...]

]]> By: Policy Implications of the Ascetic Meme « Complex Adaptive Systems http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1508 Policy Implications of the Ascetic Meme « Complex Adaptive Systems Mon, 18 Aug 2008 00:24:45 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1508 [...] of the Ascetic Meme I’d like to thank everyone that stuck with me for Part I and Part II. Now we get to the punch line, which is very simple: because of the Ascetic Meme, we cannot trust [...] [...] of the Ascetic Meme I’d like to thank everyone that stuck with me for Part I and Part II. Now we get to the punch line, which is very simple: because of the Ascetic Meme, we cannot trust [...]

]]> By: kevindick http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1507 kevindick Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:09:14 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1507 @Jay. You've kind of made my point for me. Where does guilt from consumption come from? In fact you could easily argue that "guilt from consumption"="Frugality Meme". Then all you've done is passed the buck in explaining it. It's the fact that guilt from consumption, aka Frugality Meme, is so universal that interests me. Believe me, Jews don't have a monopoly on it. I'd say we Protestants are actually ahead of you there. We wouldn't even think of selling diamonds because that _promotes_ conspicuous consumption. And giving gifts of gold to 13 year olds? So extravagant, you are ;-) @Jay. You’ve kind of made my point for me. Where does guilt from consumption come from? In fact you could easily argue that “guilt from consumption”=”Frugality Meme”. Then all you’ve done is passed the buck in explaining it.

It’s the fact that guilt from consumption, aka Frugality Meme, is so universal that interests me. Believe me, Jews don’t have a monopoly on it. I’d say we Protestants are actually ahead of you there. We wouldn’t even think of selling diamonds because that _promotes_ conspicuous consumption. And giving gifts of gold to 13 year olds? So extravagant, you are ;-)

]]> By: kevindick http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1506 kevindick Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:00:45 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1506 @Rafe. I don't typically think of risk aversion as a meme. I don't even think of it as a cognitive bias. It's a preference and as such, it can't really be right or wrong. Now, there are biases, such as the endowment effect, that irrationally affect ones risk aversion, i.e., make it inconsistent across different problem statements. That said, I see what you're getting at. Risk aversion probably potentiates the Ascetic Meme; the more risk averse you are, the more susceptible you are. Because most humans are risk averse, the meme is generally effective. I should note, however, that you could frame environmentalism so that it is the risky alternative. Fundamentally, environmentalism is proposing a deviation from the status quo, which entails risk. However, proponents usually get around this by framing the status quo as some earlier civilizational period. @Rafe. I don’t typically think of risk aversion as a meme. I don’t even think of it as a cognitive bias. It’s a preference and as such, it can’t really be right or wrong. Now, there are biases, such as the endowment effect, that irrationally affect ones risk aversion, i.e., make it inconsistent across different problem statements.

That said, I see what you’re getting at. Risk aversion probably potentiates the Ascetic Meme; the more risk averse you are, the more susceptible you are. Because most humans are risk averse, the meme is generally effective.

I should note, however, that you could frame environmentalism so that it is the risky alternative. Fundamentally, environmentalism is proposing a deviation from the status quo, which entails risk. However, proponents usually get around this by framing the status quo as some earlier civilizational period.

]]> By: jay http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1505 jay Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:02:54 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1505 Kevin: You wrote: >>> All causes are obviously memes. But I’m curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence. <<< I think there's an explanation here. When you stand face-to-face with someone espousing a political or religious cause, it's extremely easy to dismiss them when your beliefs don't jibe. You might say that you simply don't agree with this person's world view. And you can leave it at that. With environmentalism, it's hard for you and me and everyone else to dismiss someone who is saying that we're overconsuming and should do more. Because at some level, they're right. We could, at a minimum, make changes in our lives that make no discernible impact on our standard of living, but have some, though almost negligible, environmental impact. For example, do I really need to drive around with my Escalade bolted to the top of my Hummer? When we recognize profligate consumption in ourselves we feel a little of that most primal of emotions -- guilt. You need to consult with a jew before your next post on this topic :) -j Kevin:
You wrote:
>>>
All causes are obviously memes. But I’m curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence.
<<<

I think there’s an explanation here. When you stand face-to-face with someone espousing a political or religious cause, it’s extremely easy to dismiss them when your beliefs don’t jibe. You might say that you simply don’t agree with this person’s world view. And you can leave it at that.

With environmentalism, it’s hard for you and me and everyone else to dismiss someone who is saying that we’re overconsuming and should do more. Because at some level, they’re right. We could, at a minimum, make changes in our lives that make no discernible impact on our standard of living, but have some, though almost negligible, environmental impact. For example, do I really need to drive around with my Escalade bolted to the top of my Hummer?

When we recognize profligate consumption in ourselves we feel a little of that most primal of emotions — guilt.

You need to consult with a jew before your next post on this topic :)

-j

]]> By: rafefurst http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1511 rafefurst Mon, 28 Jul 2008 07:04:28 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1511 Kevin, do you think the ascetic meme is related (or another face of) the risk-aversion meme? Kevin, do you think the ascetic meme is related (or another face of) the risk-aversion meme?

]]> By: kevindick http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1510 kevindick Mon, 28 Jul 2008 06:14:43 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1510 I take your point, Jay. However, I thought this was blogworthy because environmentalism seems much more effective at converting otherwise intelligent, independent people and setting the policy agenda than even the most popular mainstream religions. All causes are obviously memes. But I'm curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence. Moreover, there really are some serious policy issues to be dealt with here. So I think it's worth exploring how unjustified emotions may be subverting the decision process. I take your point, Jay. However, I thought this was blogworthy because environmentalism seems much more effective at converting otherwise intelligent, independent people and setting the policy agenda than even the most popular mainstream religions.

All causes are obviously memes. But I’m curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence.

Moreover, there really are some serious policy issues to be dealt with here. So I think it’s worth exploring how unjustified emotions may be subverting the decision process.

]]> By: jay http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1504 Society According to Kevin: Introduction « Complex Adaptive Systems Fri, 02 Jan 2009 20:26:00 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1504 [...] you can probably guess from my series of posts on the Ascetic Meme (here, here, and here), I think this approach is misguided. If you read those posts, you can undoubtedly guess [...] [...] you can probably guess from my series of posts on the Ascetic Meme (here, here, and here), I think this approach is misguided. If you read those posts, you can undoubtedly guess [...]

]]> Comments on: The Insidious Ascetic Meme http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/ ...explorations in complex adaptive systems... Thu, 09 Sep 2010 12:29:42 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Society According to Kevin: Introduction « Complex Adaptive Systems http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1504 Society According to Kevin: Introduction « Complex Adaptive Systems Fri, 02 Jan 2009 20:26:00 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1504 [...] you can probably guess from my series of posts on the Ascetic Meme (here, here, and here), I think this approach is misguided. If you read those posts, you can undoubtedly guess [...] [...] you can probably guess from my series of posts on the Ascetic Meme (here, here, and here), I think this approach is misguided. If you read those posts, you can undoubtedly guess [...]

]]> By: Policy Implications of the Ascetic Meme « Complex Adaptive Systems http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1508 Policy Implications of the Ascetic Meme « Complex Adaptive Systems Mon, 18 Aug 2008 00:24:45 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1508 [...] of the Ascetic Meme I’d like to thank everyone that stuck with me for Part I and Part II. Now we get to the punch line, which is very simple: because of the Ascetic Meme, we cannot trust [...] [...] of the Ascetic Meme I’d like to thank everyone that stuck with me for Part I and Part II. Now we get to the punch line, which is very simple: because of the Ascetic Meme, we cannot trust [...]

]]> By: kevindick http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1507 kevindick Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:09:14 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1507 @Jay. You've kind of made my point for me. Where does guilt from consumption come from? In fact you could easily argue that "guilt from consumption"="Frugality Meme". Then all you've done is passed the buck in explaining it. It's the fact that guilt from consumption, aka Frugality Meme, is so universal that interests me. Believe me, Jews don't have a monopoly on it. I'd say we Protestants are actually ahead of you there. We wouldn't even think of selling diamonds because that _promotes_ conspicuous consumption. And giving gifts of gold to 13 year olds? So extravagant, you are ;-) @Jay. You’ve kind of made my point for me. Where does guilt from consumption come from? In fact you could easily argue that “guilt from consumption”=”Frugality Meme”. Then all you’ve done is passed the buck in explaining it.

It’s the fact that guilt from consumption, aka Frugality Meme, is so universal that interests me. Believe me, Jews don’t have a monopoly on it. I’d say we Protestants are actually ahead of you there. We wouldn’t even think of selling diamonds because that _promotes_ conspicuous consumption. And giving gifts of gold to 13 year olds? So extravagant, you are ;-)

]]> By: kevindick http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1506 kevindick Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:00:45 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1506 @Rafe. I don't typically think of risk aversion as a meme. I don't even think of it as a cognitive bias. It's a preference and as such, it can't really be right or wrong. Now, there are biases, such as the endowment effect, that irrationally affect ones risk aversion, i.e., make it inconsistent across different problem statements. That said, I see what you're getting at. Risk aversion probably potentiates the Ascetic Meme; the more risk averse you are, the more susceptible you are. Because most humans are risk averse, the meme is generally effective. I should note, however, that you could frame environmentalism so that it is the risky alternative. Fundamentally, environmentalism is proposing a deviation from the status quo, which entails risk. However, proponents usually get around this by framing the status quo as some earlier civilizational period. @Rafe. I don’t typically think of risk aversion as a meme. I don’t even think of it as a cognitive bias. It’s a preference and as such, it can’t really be right or wrong. Now, there are biases, such as the endowment effect, that irrationally affect ones risk aversion, i.e., make it inconsistent across different problem statements.

That said, I see what you’re getting at. Risk aversion probably potentiates the Ascetic Meme; the more risk averse you are, the more susceptible you are. Because most humans are risk averse, the meme is generally effective.

I should note, however, that you could frame environmentalism so that it is the risky alternative. Fundamentally, environmentalism is proposing a deviation from the status quo, which entails risk. However, proponents usually get around this by framing the status quo as some earlier civilizational period.

]]> By: jay http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1505 jay Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:02:54 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1505 Kevin: You wrote: >>> All causes are obviously memes. But I’m curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence. <<< I think there's an explanation here. When you stand face-to-face with someone espousing a political or religious cause, it's extremely easy to dismiss them when your beliefs don't jibe. You might say that you simply don't agree with this person's world view. And you can leave it at that. With environmentalism, it's hard for you and me and everyone else to dismiss someone who is saying that we're overconsuming and should do more. Because at some level, they're right. We could, at a minimum, make changes in our lives that make no discernible impact on our standard of living, but have some, though almost negligible, environmental impact. For example, do I really need to drive around with my Escalade bolted to the top of my Hummer? When we recognize profligate consumption in ourselves we feel a little of that most primal of emotions -- guilt. You need to consult with a jew before your next post on this topic :) -j Kevin:
You wrote:
>>>
All causes are obviously memes. But I’m curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence.
<<<

I think there’s an explanation here. When you stand face-to-face with someone espousing a political or religious cause, it’s extremely easy to dismiss them when your beliefs don’t jibe. You might say that you simply don’t agree with this person’s world view. And you can leave it at that.

With environmentalism, it’s hard for you and me and everyone else to dismiss someone who is saying that we’re overconsuming and should do more. Because at some level, they’re right. We could, at a minimum, make changes in our lives that make no discernible impact on our standard of living, but have some, though almost negligible, environmental impact. For example, do I really need to drive around with my Escalade bolted to the top of my Hummer?

When we recognize profligate consumption in ourselves we feel a little of that most primal of emotions — guilt.

You need to consult with a jew before your next post on this topic :)

-j

]]> By: rafefurst http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1511 rafefurst Mon, 28 Jul 2008 07:04:28 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1511 Kevin, do you think the ascetic meme is related (or another face of) the risk-aversion meme? Kevin, do you think the ascetic meme is related (or another face of) the risk-aversion meme?

]]> By: kevindick http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1510 kevindick Mon, 28 Jul 2008 06:14:43 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1510 I take your point, Jay. However, I thought this was blogworthy because environmentalism seems much more effective at converting otherwise intelligent, independent people and setting the policy agenda than even the most popular mainstream religions. All causes are obviously memes. But I'm curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence. Moreover, there really are some serious policy issues to be dealt with here. So I think it's worth exploring how unjustified emotions may be subverting the decision process. I take your point, Jay. However, I thought this was blogworthy because environmentalism seems much more effective at converting otherwise intelligent, independent people and setting the policy agenda than even the most popular mainstream religions.

All causes are obviously memes. But I’m curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence.

Moreover, there really are some serious policy issues to be dealt with here. So I think it’s worth exploring how unjustified emotions may be subverting the decision process.

]]> By: jay http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1508 Policy Implications of the Ascetic Meme « Complex Adaptive Systems Mon, 18 Aug 2008 00:24:45 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1508 [...] of the Ascetic Meme I’d like to thank everyone that stuck with me for Part I and Part II. Now we get to the punch line, which is very simple: because of the Ascetic Meme, we cannot trust [...] [...] of the Ascetic Meme I’d like to thank everyone that stuck with me for Part I and Part II. Now we get to the punch line, which is very simple: because of the Ascetic Meme, we cannot trust [...]

]]> Comments on: The Insidious Ascetic Meme http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/ ...explorations in complex adaptive systems... Thu, 09 Sep 2010 12:29:42 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Society According to Kevin: Introduction « Complex Adaptive Systems http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1504 Society According to Kevin: Introduction « Complex Adaptive Systems Fri, 02 Jan 2009 20:26:00 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1504 [...] you can probably guess from my series of posts on the Ascetic Meme (here, here, and here), I think this approach is misguided. If you read those posts, you can undoubtedly guess [...] [...] you can probably guess from my series of posts on the Ascetic Meme (here, here, and here), I think this approach is misguided. If you read those posts, you can undoubtedly guess [...]

]]> By: Policy Implications of the Ascetic Meme « Complex Adaptive Systems http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1508 Policy Implications of the Ascetic Meme « Complex Adaptive Systems Mon, 18 Aug 2008 00:24:45 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1508 [...] of the Ascetic Meme I’d like to thank everyone that stuck with me for Part I and Part II. Now we get to the punch line, which is very simple: because of the Ascetic Meme, we cannot trust [...] [...] of the Ascetic Meme I’d like to thank everyone that stuck with me for Part I and Part II. Now we get to the punch line, which is very simple: because of the Ascetic Meme, we cannot trust [...]

]]> By: kevindick http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1507 kevindick Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:09:14 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1507 @Jay. You've kind of made my point for me. Where does guilt from consumption come from? In fact you could easily argue that "guilt from consumption"="Frugality Meme". Then all you've done is passed the buck in explaining it. It's the fact that guilt from consumption, aka Frugality Meme, is so universal that interests me. Believe me, Jews don't have a monopoly on it. I'd say we Protestants are actually ahead of you there. We wouldn't even think of selling diamonds because that _promotes_ conspicuous consumption. And giving gifts of gold to 13 year olds? So extravagant, you are ;-) @Jay. You’ve kind of made my point for me. Where does guilt from consumption come from? In fact you could easily argue that “guilt from consumption”=”Frugality Meme”. Then all you’ve done is passed the buck in explaining it.

It’s the fact that guilt from consumption, aka Frugality Meme, is so universal that interests me. Believe me, Jews don’t have a monopoly on it. I’d say we Protestants are actually ahead of you there. We wouldn’t even think of selling diamonds because that _promotes_ conspicuous consumption. And giving gifts of gold to 13 year olds? So extravagant, you are ;-)

]]> By: kevindick http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1506 kevindick Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:00:45 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1506 @Rafe. I don't typically think of risk aversion as a meme. I don't even think of it as a cognitive bias. It's a preference and as such, it can't really be right or wrong. Now, there are biases, such as the endowment effect, that irrationally affect ones risk aversion, i.e., make it inconsistent across different problem statements. That said, I see what you're getting at. Risk aversion probably potentiates the Ascetic Meme; the more risk averse you are, the more susceptible you are. Because most humans are risk averse, the meme is generally effective. I should note, however, that you could frame environmentalism so that it is the risky alternative. Fundamentally, environmentalism is proposing a deviation from the status quo, which entails risk. However, proponents usually get around this by framing the status quo as some earlier civilizational period. @Rafe. I don’t typically think of risk aversion as a meme. I don’t even think of it as a cognitive bias. It’s a preference and as such, it can’t really be right or wrong. Now, there are biases, such as the endowment effect, that irrationally affect ones risk aversion, i.e., make it inconsistent across different problem statements.

That said, I see what you’re getting at. Risk aversion probably potentiates the Ascetic Meme; the more risk averse you are, the more susceptible you are. Because most humans are risk averse, the meme is generally effective.

I should note, however, that you could frame environmentalism so that it is the risky alternative. Fundamentally, environmentalism is proposing a deviation from the status quo, which entails risk. However, proponents usually get around this by framing the status quo as some earlier civilizational period.

]]> By: jay http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1505 jay Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:02:54 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1505 Kevin: You wrote: >>> All causes are obviously memes. But I’m curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence. <<< I think there's an explanation here. When you stand face-to-face with someone espousing a political or religious cause, it's extremely easy to dismiss them when your beliefs don't jibe. You might say that you simply don't agree with this person's world view. And you can leave it at that. With environmentalism, it's hard for you and me and everyone else to dismiss someone who is saying that we're overconsuming and should do more. Because at some level, they're right. We could, at a minimum, make changes in our lives that make no discernible impact on our standard of living, but have some, though almost negligible, environmental impact. For example, do I really need to drive around with my Escalade bolted to the top of my Hummer? When we recognize profligate consumption in ourselves we feel a little of that most primal of emotions -- guilt. You need to consult with a jew before your next post on this topic :) -j Kevin:
You wrote:
>>>
All causes are obviously memes. But I’m curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence.
<<<

I think there’s an explanation here. When you stand face-to-face with someone espousing a political or religious cause, it’s extremely easy to dismiss them when your beliefs don’t jibe. You might say that you simply don’t agree with this person’s world view. And you can leave it at that.

With environmentalism, it’s hard for you and me and everyone else to dismiss someone who is saying that we’re overconsuming and should do more. Because at some level, they’re right. We could, at a minimum, make changes in our lives that make no discernible impact on our standard of living, but have some, though almost negligible, environmental impact. For example, do I really need to drive around with my Escalade bolted to the top of my Hummer?

When we recognize profligate consumption in ourselves we feel a little of that most primal of emotions — guilt.

You need to consult with a jew before your next post on this topic :)

-j

]]> By: rafefurst http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1511 rafefurst Mon, 28 Jul 2008 07:04:28 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1511 Kevin, do you think the ascetic meme is related (or another face of) the risk-aversion meme? Kevin, do you think the ascetic meme is related (or another face of) the risk-aversion meme?

]]> By: kevindick http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1510 kevindick Mon, 28 Jul 2008 06:14:43 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1510 I take your point, Jay. However, I thought this was blogworthy because environmentalism seems much more effective at converting otherwise intelligent, independent people and setting the policy agenda than even the most popular mainstream religions. All causes are obviously memes. But I'm curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence. Moreover, there really are some serious policy issues to be dealt with here. So I think it's worth exploring how unjustified emotions may be subverting the decision process. I take your point, Jay. However, I thought this was blogworthy because environmentalism seems much more effective at converting otherwise intelligent, independent people and setting the policy agenda than even the most popular mainstream religions.

All causes are obviously memes. But I’m curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence.

Moreover, there really are some serious policy issues to be dealt with here. So I think it’s worth exploring how unjustified emotions may be subverting the decision process.

]]> By: jay http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1507 kevindick Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:09:14 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1507 @Jay. You've kind of made my point for me. Where does guilt from consumption come from? In fact you could easily argue that "guilt from consumption"="Frugality Meme". Then all you've done is passed the buck in explaining it. It's the fact that guilt from consumption, aka Frugality Meme, is so universal that interests me. Believe me, Jews don't have a monopoly on it. I'd say we Protestants are actually ahead of you there. We wouldn't even think of selling diamonds because that _promotes_ conspicuous consumption. And giving gifts of gold to 13 year olds? So extravagant, you are ;-) @Jay. You’ve kind of made my point for me. Where does guilt from consumption come from? In fact you could easily argue that “guilt from consumption”=”Frugality Meme”. Then all you’ve done is passed the buck in explaining it.

It’s the fact that guilt from consumption, aka Frugality Meme, is so universal that interests me. Believe me, Jews don’t have a monopoly on it. I’d say we Protestants are actually ahead of you there. We wouldn’t even think of selling diamonds because that _promotes_ conspicuous consumption. And giving gifts of gold to 13 year olds? So extravagant, you are ;-)

]]> Comments on: The Insidious Ascetic Meme http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/ ...explorations in complex adaptive systems... Thu, 09 Sep 2010 12:29:42 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Society According to Kevin: Introduction « Complex Adaptive Systems http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1504 Society According to Kevin: Introduction « Complex Adaptive Systems Fri, 02 Jan 2009 20:26:00 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1504 [...] you can probably guess from my series of posts on the Ascetic Meme (here, here, and here), I think this approach is misguided. If you read those posts, you can undoubtedly guess [...] [...] you can probably guess from my series of posts on the Ascetic Meme (here, here, and here), I think this approach is misguided. If you read those posts, you can undoubtedly guess [...]

]]> By: Policy Implications of the Ascetic Meme « Complex Adaptive Systems http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1508 Policy Implications of the Ascetic Meme « Complex Adaptive Systems Mon, 18 Aug 2008 00:24:45 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1508 [...] of the Ascetic Meme I’d like to thank everyone that stuck with me for Part I and Part II. Now we get to the punch line, which is very simple: because of the Ascetic Meme, we cannot trust [...] [...] of the Ascetic Meme I’d like to thank everyone that stuck with me for Part I and Part II. Now we get to the punch line, which is very simple: because of the Ascetic Meme, we cannot trust [...]

]]> By: kevindick http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1507 kevindick Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:09:14 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1507 @Jay. You've kind of made my point for me. Where does guilt from consumption come from? In fact you could easily argue that "guilt from consumption"="Frugality Meme". Then all you've done is passed the buck in explaining it. It's the fact that guilt from consumption, aka Frugality Meme, is so universal that interests me. Believe me, Jews don't have a monopoly on it. I'd say we Protestants are actually ahead of you there. We wouldn't even think of selling diamonds because that _promotes_ conspicuous consumption. And giving gifts of gold to 13 year olds? So extravagant, you are ;-) @Jay. You’ve kind of made my point for me. Where does guilt from consumption come from? In fact you could easily argue that “guilt from consumption”=”Frugality Meme”. Then all you’ve done is passed the buck in explaining it.

It’s the fact that guilt from consumption, aka Frugality Meme, is so universal that interests me. Believe me, Jews don’t have a monopoly on it. I’d say we Protestants are actually ahead of you there. We wouldn’t even think of selling diamonds because that _promotes_ conspicuous consumption. And giving gifts of gold to 13 year olds? So extravagant, you are ;-)

]]> By: kevindick http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1506 kevindick Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:00:45 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1506 @Rafe. I don't typically think of risk aversion as a meme. I don't even think of it as a cognitive bias. It's a preference and as such, it can't really be right or wrong. Now, there are biases, such as the endowment effect, that irrationally affect ones risk aversion, i.e., make it inconsistent across different problem statements. That said, I see what you're getting at. Risk aversion probably potentiates the Ascetic Meme; the more risk averse you are, the more susceptible you are. Because most humans are risk averse, the meme is generally effective. I should note, however, that you could frame environmentalism so that it is the risky alternative. Fundamentally, environmentalism is proposing a deviation from the status quo, which entails risk. However, proponents usually get around this by framing the status quo as some earlier civilizational period. @Rafe. I don’t typically think of risk aversion as a meme. I don’t even think of it as a cognitive bias. It’s a preference and as such, it can’t really be right or wrong. Now, there are biases, such as the endowment effect, that irrationally affect ones risk aversion, i.e., make it inconsistent across different problem statements.

That said, I see what you’re getting at. Risk aversion probably potentiates the Ascetic Meme; the more risk averse you are, the more susceptible you are. Because most humans are risk averse, the meme is generally effective.

I should note, however, that you could frame environmentalism so that it is the risky alternative. Fundamentally, environmentalism is proposing a deviation from the status quo, which entails risk. However, proponents usually get around this by framing the status quo as some earlier civilizational period.

]]> By: jay http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1505 jay Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:02:54 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1505 Kevin: You wrote: >>> All causes are obviously memes. But I’m curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence. <<< I think there's an explanation here. When you stand face-to-face with someone espousing a political or religious cause, it's extremely easy to dismiss them when your beliefs don't jibe. You might say that you simply don't agree with this person's world view. And you can leave it at that. With environmentalism, it's hard for you and me and everyone else to dismiss someone who is saying that we're overconsuming and should do more. Because at some level, they're right. We could, at a minimum, make changes in our lives that make no discernible impact on our standard of living, but have some, though almost negligible, environmental impact. For example, do I really need to drive around with my Escalade bolted to the top of my Hummer? When we recognize profligate consumption in ourselves we feel a little of that most primal of emotions -- guilt. You need to consult with a jew before your next post on this topic :) -j Kevin:
You wrote:
>>>
All causes are obviously memes. But I’m curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence.
<<<

I think there’s an explanation here. When you stand face-to-face with someone espousing a political or religious cause, it’s extremely easy to dismiss them when your beliefs don’t jibe. You might say that you simply don’t agree with this person’s world view. And you can leave it at that.

With environmentalism, it’s hard for you and me and everyone else to dismiss someone who is saying that we’re overconsuming and should do more. Because at some level, they’re right. We could, at a minimum, make changes in our lives that make no discernible impact on our standard of living, but have some, though almost negligible, environmental impact. For example, do I really need to drive around with my Escalade bolted to the top of my Hummer?

When we recognize profligate consumption in ourselves we feel a little of that most primal of emotions — guilt.

You need to consult with a jew before your next post on this topic :)

-j

]]> By: rafefurst http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1511 rafefurst Mon, 28 Jul 2008 07:04:28 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1511 Kevin, do you think the ascetic meme is related (or another face of) the risk-aversion meme? Kevin, do you think the ascetic meme is related (or another face of) the risk-aversion meme?

]]> By: kevindick http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1510 kevindick Mon, 28 Jul 2008 06:14:43 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1510 I take your point, Jay. However, I thought this was blogworthy because environmentalism seems much more effective at converting otherwise intelligent, independent people and setting the policy agenda than even the most popular mainstream religions. All causes are obviously memes. But I'm curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence. Moreover, there really are some serious policy issues to be dealt with here. So I think it's worth exploring how unjustified emotions may be subverting the decision process. I take your point, Jay. However, I thought this was blogworthy because environmentalism seems much more effective at converting otherwise intelligent, independent people and setting the policy agenda than even the most popular mainstream religions.

All causes are obviously memes. But I’m curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence.

Moreover, there really are some serious policy issues to be dealt with here. So I think it’s worth exploring how unjustified emotions may be subverting the decision process.

]]> By: jay http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1506 kevindick Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:00:45 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1506 @Rafe. I don't typically think of risk aversion as a meme. I don't even think of it as a cognitive bias. It's a preference and as such, it can't really be right or wrong. Now, there are biases, such as the endowment effect, that irrationally affect ones risk aversion, i.e., make it inconsistent across different problem statements. That said, I see what you're getting at. Risk aversion probably potentiates the Ascetic Meme; the more risk averse you are, the more susceptible you are. Because most humans are risk averse, the meme is generally effective. I should note, however, that you could frame environmentalism so that it is the risky alternative. Fundamentally, environmentalism is proposing a deviation from the status quo, which entails risk. However, proponents usually get around this by framing the status quo as some earlier civilizational period. @Rafe. I don’t typically think of risk aversion as a meme. I don’t even think of it as a cognitive bias. It’s a preference and as such, it can’t really be right or wrong. Now, there are biases, such as the endowment effect, that irrationally affect ones risk aversion, i.e., make it inconsistent across different problem statements.

That said, I see what you’re getting at. Risk aversion probably potentiates the Ascetic Meme; the more risk averse you are, the more susceptible you are. Because most humans are risk averse, the meme is generally effective.

I should note, however, that you could frame environmentalism so that it is the risky alternative. Fundamentally, environmentalism is proposing a deviation from the status quo, which entails risk. However, proponents usually get around this by framing the status quo as some earlier civilizational period.

]]> Comments on: The Insidious Ascetic Meme http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/ ...explorations in complex adaptive systems... Thu, 09 Sep 2010 12:29:42 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Society According to Kevin: Introduction « Complex Adaptive Systems http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1504 Society According to Kevin: Introduction « Complex Adaptive Systems Fri, 02 Jan 2009 20:26:00 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1504 [...] you can probably guess from my series of posts on the Ascetic Meme (here, here, and here), I think this approach is misguided. If you read those posts, you can undoubtedly guess [...] [...] you can probably guess from my series of posts on the Ascetic Meme (here, here, and here), I think this approach is misguided. If you read those posts, you can undoubtedly guess [...]

]]> By: Policy Implications of the Ascetic Meme « Complex Adaptive Systems http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1508 Policy Implications of the Ascetic Meme « Complex Adaptive Systems Mon, 18 Aug 2008 00:24:45 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1508 [...] of the Ascetic Meme I’d like to thank everyone that stuck with me for Part I and Part II. Now we get to the punch line, which is very simple: because of the Ascetic Meme, we cannot trust [...] [...] of the Ascetic Meme I’d like to thank everyone that stuck with me for Part I and Part II. Now we get to the punch line, which is very simple: because of the Ascetic Meme, we cannot trust [...]

]]> By: kevindick http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1507 kevindick Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:09:14 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1507 @Jay. You've kind of made my point for me. Where does guilt from consumption come from? In fact you could easily argue that "guilt from consumption"="Frugality Meme". Then all you've done is passed the buck in explaining it. It's the fact that guilt from consumption, aka Frugality Meme, is so universal that interests me. Believe me, Jews don't have a monopoly on it. I'd say we Protestants are actually ahead of you there. We wouldn't even think of selling diamonds because that _promotes_ conspicuous consumption. And giving gifts of gold to 13 year olds? So extravagant, you are ;-) @Jay. You’ve kind of made my point for me. Where does guilt from consumption come from? In fact you could easily argue that “guilt from consumption”=”Frugality Meme”. Then all you’ve done is passed the buck in explaining it.

It’s the fact that guilt from consumption, aka Frugality Meme, is so universal that interests me. Believe me, Jews don’t have a monopoly on it. I’d say we Protestants are actually ahead of you there. We wouldn’t even think of selling diamonds because that _promotes_ conspicuous consumption. And giving gifts of gold to 13 year olds? So extravagant, you are ;-)

]]> By: kevindick http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1506 kevindick Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:00:45 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1506 @Rafe. I don't typically think of risk aversion as a meme. I don't even think of it as a cognitive bias. It's a preference and as such, it can't really be right or wrong. Now, there are biases, such as the endowment effect, that irrationally affect ones risk aversion, i.e., make it inconsistent across different problem statements. That said, I see what you're getting at. Risk aversion probably potentiates the Ascetic Meme; the more risk averse you are, the more susceptible you are. Because most humans are risk averse, the meme is generally effective. I should note, however, that you could frame environmentalism so that it is the risky alternative. Fundamentally, environmentalism is proposing a deviation from the status quo, which entails risk. However, proponents usually get around this by framing the status quo as some earlier civilizational period. @Rafe. I don’t typically think of risk aversion as a meme. I don’t even think of it as a cognitive bias. It’s a preference and as such, it can’t really be right or wrong. Now, there are biases, such as the endowment effect, that irrationally affect ones risk aversion, i.e., make it inconsistent across different problem statements.

That said, I see what you’re getting at. Risk aversion probably potentiates the Ascetic Meme; the more risk averse you are, the more susceptible you are. Because most humans are risk averse, the meme is generally effective.

I should note, however, that you could frame environmentalism so that it is the risky alternative. Fundamentally, environmentalism is proposing a deviation from the status quo, which entails risk. However, proponents usually get around this by framing the status quo as some earlier civilizational period.

]]> By: jay http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1505 jay Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:02:54 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1505 Kevin: You wrote: >>> All causes are obviously memes. But I’m curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence. <<< I think there's an explanation here. When you stand face-to-face with someone espousing a political or religious cause, it's extremely easy to dismiss them when your beliefs don't jibe. You might say that you simply don't agree with this person's world view. And you can leave it at that. With environmentalism, it's hard for you and me and everyone else to dismiss someone who is saying that we're overconsuming and should do more. Because at some level, they're right. We could, at a minimum, make changes in our lives that make no discernible impact on our standard of living, but have some, though almost negligible, environmental impact. For example, do I really need to drive around with my Escalade bolted to the top of my Hummer? When we recognize profligate consumption in ourselves we feel a little of that most primal of emotions -- guilt. You need to consult with a jew before your next post on this topic :) -j Kevin:
You wrote:
>>>
All causes are obviously memes. But I’m curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence.
<<<

I think there’s an explanation here. When you stand face-to-face with someone espousing a political or religious cause, it’s extremely easy to dismiss them when your beliefs don’t jibe. You might say that you simply don’t agree with this person’s world view. And you can leave it at that.

With environmentalism, it’s hard for you and me and everyone else to dismiss someone who is saying that we’re overconsuming and should do more. Because at some level, they’re right. We could, at a minimum, make changes in our lives that make no discernible impact on our standard of living, but have some, though almost negligible, environmental impact. For example, do I really need to drive around with my Escalade bolted to the top of my Hummer?

When we recognize profligate consumption in ourselves we feel a little of that most primal of emotions — guilt.

You need to consult with a jew before your next post on this topic :)

-j

]]> By: rafefurst http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1511 rafefurst Mon, 28 Jul 2008 07:04:28 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1511 Kevin, do you think the ascetic meme is related (or another face of) the risk-aversion meme? Kevin, do you think the ascetic meme is related (or another face of) the risk-aversion meme?

]]> By: kevindick http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1510 kevindick Mon, 28 Jul 2008 06:14:43 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1510 I take your point, Jay. However, I thought this was blogworthy because environmentalism seems much more effective at converting otherwise intelligent, independent people and setting the policy agenda than even the most popular mainstream religions. All causes are obviously memes. But I'm curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence. Moreover, there really are some serious policy issues to be dealt with here. So I think it's worth exploring how unjustified emotions may be subverting the decision process. I take your point, Jay. However, I thought this was blogworthy because environmentalism seems much more effective at converting otherwise intelligent, independent people and setting the policy agenda than even the most popular mainstream religions.

All causes are obviously memes. But I’m curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence.

Moreover, there really are some serious policy issues to be dealt with here. So I think it’s worth exploring how unjustified emotions may be subverting the decision process.

]]> By: jay http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1505 jay Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:02:54 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1505 Kevin: You wrote: >>> All causes are obviously memes. But I’m curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence. <<< I think there's an explanation here. When you stand face-to-face with someone espousing a political or religious cause, it's extremely easy to dismiss them when your beliefs don't jibe. You might say that you simply don't agree with this person's world view. And you can leave it at that. With environmentalism, it's hard for you and me and everyone else to dismiss someone who is saying that we're overconsuming and should do more. Because at some level, they're right. We could, at a minimum, make changes in our lives that make no discernible impact on our standard of living, but have some, though almost negligible, environmental impact. For example, do I really need to drive around with my Escalade bolted to the top of my Hummer? When we recognize profligate consumption in ourselves we feel a little of that most primal of emotions -- guilt. You need to consult with a jew before your next post on this topic :) -j Kevin:
You wrote:
>>>
All causes are obviously memes. But I’m curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence.
<<<

I think there’s an explanation here. When you stand face-to-face with someone espousing a political or religious cause, it’s extremely easy to dismiss them when your beliefs don’t jibe. You might say that you simply don’t agree with this person’s world view. And you can leave it at that.

With environmentalism, it’s hard for you and me and everyone else to dismiss someone who is saying that we’re overconsuming and should do more. Because at some level, they’re right. We could, at a minimum, make changes in our lives that make no discernible impact on our standard of living, but have some, though almost negligible, environmental impact. For example, do I really need to drive around with my Escalade bolted to the top of my Hummer?

When we recognize profligate consumption in ourselves we feel a little of that most primal of emotions — guilt.

You need to consult with a jew before your next post on this topic :)

-j

]]> Comments on: The Insidious Ascetic Meme http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/ ...explorations in complex adaptive systems... Thu, 09 Sep 2010 12:29:42 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Society According to Kevin: Introduction « Complex Adaptive Systems http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1504 Society According to Kevin: Introduction « Complex Adaptive Systems Fri, 02 Jan 2009 20:26:00 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1504 [...] you can probably guess from my series of posts on the Ascetic Meme (here, here, and here), I think this approach is misguided. If you read those posts, you can undoubtedly guess [...] [...] you can probably guess from my series of posts on the Ascetic Meme (here, here, and here), I think this approach is misguided. If you read those posts, you can undoubtedly guess [...]

]]> By: Policy Implications of the Ascetic Meme « Complex Adaptive Systems http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1508 Policy Implications of the Ascetic Meme « Complex Adaptive Systems Mon, 18 Aug 2008 00:24:45 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1508 [...] of the Ascetic Meme I’d like to thank everyone that stuck with me for Part I and Part II. Now we get to the punch line, which is very simple: because of the Ascetic Meme, we cannot trust [...] [...] of the Ascetic Meme I’d like to thank everyone that stuck with me for Part I and Part II. Now we get to the punch line, which is very simple: because of the Ascetic Meme, we cannot trust [...]

]]> By: kevindick http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1507 kevindick Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:09:14 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1507 @Jay. You've kind of made my point for me. Where does guilt from consumption come from? In fact you could easily argue that "guilt from consumption"="Frugality Meme". Then all you've done is passed the buck in explaining it. It's the fact that guilt from consumption, aka Frugality Meme, is so universal that interests me. Believe me, Jews don't have a monopoly on it. I'd say we Protestants are actually ahead of you there. We wouldn't even think of selling diamonds because that _promotes_ conspicuous consumption. And giving gifts of gold to 13 year olds? So extravagant, you are ;-) @Jay. You’ve kind of made my point for me. Where does guilt from consumption come from? In fact you could easily argue that “guilt from consumption”=”Frugality Meme”. Then all you’ve done is passed the buck in explaining it.

It’s the fact that guilt from consumption, aka Frugality Meme, is so universal that interests me. Believe me, Jews don’t have a monopoly on it. I’d say we Protestants are actually ahead of you there. We wouldn’t even think of selling diamonds because that _promotes_ conspicuous consumption. And giving gifts of gold to 13 year olds? So extravagant, you are ;-)

]]> By: kevindick http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1506 kevindick Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:00:45 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1506 @Rafe. I don't typically think of risk aversion as a meme. I don't even think of it as a cognitive bias. It's a preference and as such, it can't really be right or wrong. Now, there are biases, such as the endowment effect, that irrationally affect ones risk aversion, i.e., make it inconsistent across different problem statements. That said, I see what you're getting at. Risk aversion probably potentiates the Ascetic Meme; the more risk averse you are, the more susceptible you are. Because most humans are risk averse, the meme is generally effective. I should note, however, that you could frame environmentalism so that it is the risky alternative. Fundamentally, environmentalism is proposing a deviation from the status quo, which entails risk. However, proponents usually get around this by framing the status quo as some earlier civilizational period. @Rafe. I don’t typically think of risk aversion as a meme. I don’t even think of it as a cognitive bias. It’s a preference and as such, it can’t really be right or wrong. Now, there are biases, such as the endowment effect, that irrationally affect ones risk aversion, i.e., make it inconsistent across different problem statements.

That said, I see what you’re getting at. Risk aversion probably potentiates the Ascetic Meme; the more risk averse you are, the more susceptible you are. Because most humans are risk averse, the meme is generally effective.

I should note, however, that you could frame environmentalism so that it is the risky alternative. Fundamentally, environmentalism is proposing a deviation from the status quo, which entails risk. However, proponents usually get around this by framing the status quo as some earlier civilizational period.

]]> By: jay http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1505 jay Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:02:54 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1505 Kevin: You wrote: >>> All causes are obviously memes. But I’m curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence. <<< I think there's an explanation here. When you stand face-to-face with someone espousing a political or religious cause, it's extremely easy to dismiss them when your beliefs don't jibe. You might say that you simply don't agree with this person's world view. And you can leave it at that. With environmentalism, it's hard for you and me and everyone else to dismiss someone who is saying that we're overconsuming and should do more. Because at some level, they're right. We could, at a minimum, make changes in our lives that make no discernible impact on our standard of living, but have some, though almost negligible, environmental impact. For example, do I really need to drive around with my Escalade bolted to the top of my Hummer? When we recognize profligate consumption in ourselves we feel a little of that most primal of emotions -- guilt. You need to consult with a jew before your next post on this topic :) -j Kevin:
You wrote:
>>>
All causes are obviously memes. But I’m curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence.
<<<

I think there’s an explanation here. When you stand face-to-face with someone espousing a political or religious cause, it’s extremely easy to dismiss them when your beliefs don’t jibe. You might say that you simply don’t agree with this person’s world view. And you can leave it at that.

With environmentalism, it’s hard for you and me and everyone else to dismiss someone who is saying that we’re overconsuming and should do more. Because at some level, they’re right. We could, at a minimum, make changes in our lives that make no discernible impact on our standard of living, but have some, though almost negligible, environmental impact. For example, do I really need to drive around with my Escalade bolted to the top of my Hummer?

When we recognize profligate consumption in ourselves we feel a little of that most primal of emotions — guilt.

You need to consult with a jew before your next post on this topic :)

-j

]]> By: rafefurst http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1511 rafefurst Mon, 28 Jul 2008 07:04:28 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1511 Kevin, do you think the ascetic meme is related (or another face of) the risk-aversion meme? Kevin, do you think the ascetic meme is related (or another face of) the risk-aversion meme?

]]> By: kevindick http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1510 kevindick Mon, 28 Jul 2008 06:14:43 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1510 I take your point, Jay. However, I thought this was blogworthy because environmentalism seems much more effective at converting otherwise intelligent, independent people and setting the policy agenda than even the most popular mainstream religions. All causes are obviously memes. But I'm curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence. Moreover, there really are some serious policy issues to be dealt with here. So I think it's worth exploring how unjustified emotions may be subverting the decision process. I take your point, Jay. However, I thought this was blogworthy because environmentalism seems much more effective at converting otherwise intelligent, independent people and setting the policy agenda than even the most popular mainstream religions.

All causes are obviously memes. But I’m curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence.

Moreover, there really are some serious policy issues to be dealt with here. So I think it’s worth exploring how unjustified emotions may be subverting the decision process.

]]> By: jay http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1511 rafefurst Mon, 28 Jul 2008 07:04:28 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1511 Kevin, do you think the ascetic meme is related (or another face of) the risk-aversion meme? Kevin, do you think the ascetic meme is related (or another face of) the risk-aversion meme?

]]> Comments on: The Insidious Ascetic Meme http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/ ...explorations in complex adaptive systems... Thu, 09 Sep 2010 12:29:42 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Society According to Kevin: Introduction « Complex Adaptive Systems http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1504 Society According to Kevin: Introduction « Complex Adaptive Systems Fri, 02 Jan 2009 20:26:00 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1504 [...] you can probably guess from my series of posts on the Ascetic Meme (here, here, and here), I think this approach is misguided. If you read those posts, you can undoubtedly guess [...] [...] you can probably guess from my series of posts on the Ascetic Meme (here, here, and here), I think this approach is misguided. If you read those posts, you can undoubtedly guess [...]

]]> By: Policy Implications of the Ascetic Meme « Complex Adaptive Systems http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1508 Policy Implications of the Ascetic Meme « Complex Adaptive Systems Mon, 18 Aug 2008 00:24:45 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1508 [...] of the Ascetic Meme I’d like to thank everyone that stuck with me for Part I and Part II. Now we get to the punch line, which is very simple: because of the Ascetic Meme, we cannot trust [...] [...] of the Ascetic Meme I’d like to thank everyone that stuck with me for Part I and Part II. Now we get to the punch line, which is very simple: because of the Ascetic Meme, we cannot trust [...]

]]> By: kevindick http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1507 kevindick Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:09:14 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1507 @Jay. You've kind of made my point for me. Where does guilt from consumption come from? In fact you could easily argue that "guilt from consumption"="Frugality Meme". Then all you've done is passed the buck in explaining it. It's the fact that guilt from consumption, aka Frugality Meme, is so universal that interests me. Believe me, Jews don't have a monopoly on it. I'd say we Protestants are actually ahead of you there. We wouldn't even think of selling diamonds because that _promotes_ conspicuous consumption. And giving gifts of gold to 13 year olds? So extravagant, you are ;-) @Jay. You’ve kind of made my point for me. Where does guilt from consumption come from? In fact you could easily argue that “guilt from consumption”=”Frugality Meme”. Then all you’ve done is passed the buck in explaining it.

It’s the fact that guilt from consumption, aka Frugality Meme, is so universal that interests me. Believe me, Jews don’t have a monopoly on it. I’d say we Protestants are actually ahead of you there. We wouldn’t even think of selling diamonds because that _promotes_ conspicuous consumption. And giving gifts of gold to 13 year olds? So extravagant, you are ;-)

]]> By: kevindick http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1506 kevindick Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:00:45 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1506 @Rafe. I don't typically think of risk aversion as a meme. I don't even think of it as a cognitive bias. It's a preference and as such, it can't really be right or wrong. Now, there are biases, such as the endowment effect, that irrationally affect ones risk aversion, i.e., make it inconsistent across different problem statements. That said, I see what you're getting at. Risk aversion probably potentiates the Ascetic Meme; the more risk averse you are, the more susceptible you are. Because most humans are risk averse, the meme is generally effective. I should note, however, that you could frame environmentalism so that it is the risky alternative. Fundamentally, environmentalism is proposing a deviation from the status quo, which entails risk. However, proponents usually get around this by framing the status quo as some earlier civilizational period. @Rafe. I don’t typically think of risk aversion as a meme. I don’t even think of it as a cognitive bias. It’s a preference and as such, it can’t really be right or wrong. Now, there are biases, such as the endowment effect, that irrationally affect ones risk aversion, i.e., make it inconsistent across different problem statements.

That said, I see what you’re getting at. Risk aversion probably potentiates the Ascetic Meme; the more risk averse you are, the more susceptible you are. Because most humans are risk averse, the meme is generally effective.

I should note, however, that you could frame environmentalism so that it is the risky alternative. Fundamentally, environmentalism is proposing a deviation from the status quo, which entails risk. However, proponents usually get around this by framing the status quo as some earlier civilizational period.

]]> By: jay http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1505 jay Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:02:54 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1505 Kevin: You wrote: >>> All causes are obviously memes. But I’m curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence. <<< I think there's an explanation here. When you stand face-to-face with someone espousing a political or religious cause, it's extremely easy to dismiss them when your beliefs don't jibe. You might say that you simply don't agree with this person's world view. And you can leave it at that. With environmentalism, it's hard for you and me and everyone else to dismiss someone who is saying that we're overconsuming and should do more. Because at some level, they're right. We could, at a minimum, make changes in our lives that make no discernible impact on our standard of living, but have some, though almost negligible, environmental impact. For example, do I really need to drive around with my Escalade bolted to the top of my Hummer? When we recognize profligate consumption in ourselves we feel a little of that most primal of emotions -- guilt. You need to consult with a jew before your next post on this topic :) -j Kevin:
You wrote:
>>>
All causes are obviously memes. But I’m curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence.
<<<

I think there’s an explanation here. When you stand face-to-face with someone espousing a political or religious cause, it’s extremely easy to dismiss them when your beliefs don’t jibe. You might say that you simply don’t agree with this person’s world view. And you can leave it at that.

With environmentalism, it’s hard for you and me and everyone else to dismiss someone who is saying that we’re overconsuming and should do more. Because at some level, they’re right. We could, at a minimum, make changes in our lives that make no discernible impact on our standard of living, but have some, though almost negligible, environmental impact. For example, do I really need to drive around with my Escalade bolted to the top of my Hummer?

When we recognize profligate consumption in ourselves we feel a little of that most primal of emotions — guilt.

You need to consult with a jew before your next post on this topic :)

-j

]]> By: rafefurst http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1511 rafefurst Mon, 28 Jul 2008 07:04:28 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1511 Kevin, do you think the ascetic meme is related (or another face of) the risk-aversion meme? Kevin, do you think the ascetic meme is related (or another face of) the risk-aversion meme?

]]> By: kevindick http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1510 kevindick Mon, 28 Jul 2008 06:14:43 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1510 I take your point, Jay. However, I thought this was blogworthy because environmentalism seems much more effective at converting otherwise intelligent, independent people and setting the policy agenda than even the most popular mainstream religions. All causes are obviously memes. But I'm curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence. Moreover, there really are some serious policy issues to be dealt with here. So I think it's worth exploring how unjustified emotions may be subverting the decision process. I take your point, Jay. However, I thought this was blogworthy because environmentalism seems much more effective at converting otherwise intelligent, independent people and setting the policy agenda than even the most popular mainstream religions.

All causes are obviously memes. But I’m curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence.

Moreover, there really are some serious policy issues to be dealt with here. So I think it’s worth exploring how unjustified emotions may be subverting the decision process.

]]> By: jay http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1510 kevindick Mon, 28 Jul 2008 06:14:43 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1510 I take your point, Jay. However, I thought this was blogworthy because environmentalism seems much more effective at converting otherwise intelligent, independent people and setting the policy agenda than even the most popular mainstream religions. All causes are obviously memes. But I'm curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence. Moreover, there really are some serious policy issues to be dealt with here. So I think it's worth exploring how unjustified emotions may be subverting the decision process. I take your point, Jay. However, I thought this was blogworthy because environmentalism seems much more effective at converting otherwise intelligent, independent people and setting the policy agenda than even the most popular mainstream religions.

All causes are obviously memes. But I’m curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence.

Moreover, there really are some serious policy issues to be dealt with here. So I think it’s worth exploring how unjustified emotions may be subverting the decision process.

]]> Comments on: The Insidious Ascetic Meme http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/ ...explorations in complex adaptive systems... Thu, 09 Sep 2010 12:29:42 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Society According to Kevin: Introduction « Complex Adaptive Systems http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1504 Society According to Kevin: Introduction « Complex Adaptive Systems Fri, 02 Jan 2009 20:26:00 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1504 [...] you can probably guess from my series of posts on the Ascetic Meme (here, here, and here), I think this approach is misguided. If you read those posts, you can undoubtedly guess [...] [...] you can probably guess from my series of posts on the Ascetic Meme (here, here, and here), I think this approach is misguided. If you read those posts, you can undoubtedly guess [...]

]]> By: Policy Implications of the Ascetic Meme « Complex Adaptive Systems http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1508 Policy Implications of the Ascetic Meme « Complex Adaptive Systems Mon, 18 Aug 2008 00:24:45 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1508 [...] of the Ascetic Meme I’d like to thank everyone that stuck with me for Part I and Part II. Now we get to the punch line, which is very simple: because of the Ascetic Meme, we cannot trust [...] [...] of the Ascetic Meme I’d like to thank everyone that stuck with me for Part I and Part II. Now we get to the punch line, which is very simple: because of the Ascetic Meme, we cannot trust [...]

]]> By: kevindick http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1507 kevindick Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:09:14 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1507 @Jay. You've kind of made my point for me. Where does guilt from consumption come from? In fact you could easily argue that "guilt from consumption"="Frugality Meme". Then all you've done is passed the buck in explaining it. It's the fact that guilt from consumption, aka Frugality Meme, is so universal that interests me. Believe me, Jews don't have a monopoly on it. I'd say we Protestants are actually ahead of you there. We wouldn't even think of selling diamonds because that _promotes_ conspicuous consumption. And giving gifts of gold to 13 year olds? So extravagant, you are ;-) @Jay. You’ve kind of made my point for me. Where does guilt from consumption come from? In fact you could easily argue that “guilt from consumption”=”Frugality Meme”. Then all you’ve done is passed the buck in explaining it.

It’s the fact that guilt from consumption, aka Frugality Meme, is so universal that interests me. Believe me, Jews don’t have a monopoly on it. I’d say we Protestants are actually ahead of you there. We wouldn’t even think of selling diamonds because that _promotes_ conspicuous consumption. And giving gifts of gold to 13 year olds? So extravagant, you are ;-)

]]> By: kevindick http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1506 kevindick Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:00:45 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1506 @Rafe. I don't typically think of risk aversion as a meme. I don't even think of it as a cognitive bias. It's a preference and as such, it can't really be right or wrong. Now, there are biases, such as the endowment effect, that irrationally affect ones risk aversion, i.e., make it inconsistent across different problem statements. That said, I see what you're getting at. Risk aversion probably potentiates the Ascetic Meme; the more risk averse you are, the more susceptible you are. Because most humans are risk averse, the meme is generally effective. I should note, however, that you could frame environmentalism so that it is the risky alternative. Fundamentally, environmentalism is proposing a deviation from the status quo, which entails risk. However, proponents usually get around this by framing the status quo as some earlier civilizational period. @Rafe. I don’t typically think of risk aversion as a meme. I don’t even think of it as a cognitive bias. It’s a preference and as such, it can’t really be right or wrong. Now, there are biases, such as the endowment effect, that irrationally affect ones risk aversion, i.e., make it inconsistent across different problem statements.

That said, I see what you’re getting at. Risk aversion probably potentiates the Ascetic Meme; the more risk averse you are, the more susceptible you are. Because most humans are risk averse, the meme is generally effective.

I should note, however, that you could frame environmentalism so that it is the risky alternative. Fundamentally, environmentalism is proposing a deviation from the status quo, which entails risk. However, proponents usually get around this by framing the status quo as some earlier civilizational period.

]]> By: jay http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1505 jay Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:02:54 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1505 Kevin: You wrote: >>> All causes are obviously memes. But I’m curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence. <<< I think there's an explanation here. When you stand face-to-face with someone espousing a political or religious cause, it's extremely easy to dismiss them when your beliefs don't jibe. You might say that you simply don't agree with this person's world view. And you can leave it at that. With environmentalism, it's hard for you and me and everyone else to dismiss someone who is saying that we're overconsuming and should do more. Because at some level, they're right. We could, at a minimum, make changes in our lives that make no discernible impact on our standard of living, but have some, though almost negligible, environmental impact. For example, do I really need to drive around with my Escalade bolted to the top of my Hummer? When we recognize profligate consumption in ourselves we feel a little of that most primal of emotions -- guilt. You need to consult with a jew before your next post on this topic :) -j Kevin:
You wrote:
>>>
All causes are obviously memes. But I’m curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence.
<<<

I think there’s an explanation here. When you stand face-to-face with someone espousing a political or religious cause, it’s extremely easy to dismiss them when your beliefs don’t jibe. You might say that you simply don’t agree with this person’s world view. And you can leave it at that.

With environmentalism, it’s hard for you and me and everyone else to dismiss someone who is saying that we’re overconsuming and should do more. Because at some level, they’re right. We could, at a minimum, make changes in our lives that make no discernible impact on our standard of living, but have some, though almost negligible, environmental impact. For example, do I really need to drive around with my Escalade bolted to the top of my Hummer?

When we recognize profligate consumption in ourselves we feel a little of that most primal of emotions — guilt.

You need to consult with a jew before your next post on this topic :)

-j

]]> By: rafefurst http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1511 rafefurst Mon, 28 Jul 2008 07:04:28 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1511 Kevin, do you think the ascetic meme is related (or another face of) the risk-aversion meme? Kevin, do you think the ascetic meme is related (or another face of) the risk-aversion meme?

]]> By: kevindick http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1510 kevindick Mon, 28 Jul 2008 06:14:43 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1510 I take your point, Jay. However, I thought this was blogworthy because environmentalism seems much more effective at converting otherwise intelligent, independent people and setting the policy agenda than even the most popular mainstream religions. All causes are obviously memes. But I'm curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence. Moreover, there really are some serious policy issues to be dealt with here. So I think it's worth exploring how unjustified emotions may be subverting the decision process. I take your point, Jay. However, I thought this was blogworthy because environmentalism seems much more effective at converting otherwise intelligent, independent people and setting the policy agenda than even the most popular mainstream religions.

All causes are obviously memes. But I’m curious why environmentalism seems particularly successful. Even I find myself swayed somewhat by environmental emotion when I am otherwise completely immune to arguments in favor of other causes unless they are backed by pretty hard evidence.

Moreover, there really are some serious policy issues to be dealt with here. So I think it’s worth exploring how unjustified emotions may be subverting the decision process.

]]> By: jay http://emergentfool.com/2008/07/24/the-insidious-ascetic-meme/#comment-1509 jay Sun, 27 Jul 2008 19:57:26 +0000 http://rafefurst.wordpress.com/?p=159#comment-1509 So you find some environmentalists sanctimonious, hypocritical, and in some cases pretty loopy. Go figure. In these ways, are they really any different than any other large group that advocates a cause? I admire your thoughts on this topic, but maybe it's simpler than you think. People preach, even when they're ignorant. People take things to extremes. Then they preach about why you should too. So you find some environmentalists sanctimonious, hypocritical, and in some cases pretty loopy. Go figure.

In these ways, are they really any different than any other large group that advocates a cause?

I admire your thoughts on this topic, but maybe it’s simpler than you think. People preach, even when they’re ignorant. People take things to extremes. Then they preach about why you should too.

]]>